Women, Religion, take two

I realized when I got up this morning that there's a LOT more to be said, and perhaps even this post isn't enough.  The subject of women in religion and especially the American view of women in Islam is a very large thing.

In any case, I wrote another post.

Perhaps I'll do it again tomorrow.

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tom
[this is good]
You touch on some great points, but there's one fundamental difference. In this country, the Amish woman has the freedom to leave the farm, stick a flower in her teeth, and dance tangos, if she wants, and she will not be killed by the State. She might be ostracized by her community and disowned by her family, but the US government will not punish her. In the Arab world, a woman who violates the Muslim laws will be punished, regardless of whether she practices that faith in her heart. If Britney Spears were to wiggle down the street in her crop top and short-shorts, she'd be arrested and punished, even though she's a Baptist.

Your example of the Muslim woman on the bus is perfect. Here is a woman who embraces the strict tenets of her faith, voluntarily living under restrictions that you'd find unacceptable. In the Arab world, those same restrictions she embraces would be compulsory, and enforceable by law.

About eight miles from here is the Scientology worldwide spiritual headquarters. The Church of Scientology owns a huge amount of downtown Clearwater. If you drive through there during the day, you can see scads of Scientology workers walking around in their navy-type uniforms. The Church of Scientology has plenty of beliefs and practices that clash with those of "mainstream" society, but their members have the legal right to leave--they can go off and see psychiatrists if they want, or have loud childbirths, etc. The only thing keeping them there is their own choice to remain. (There are charges of brainwashing and strongarm tactics, but I'm not talking about those here)

I was raised Presbyterian, and I didn't see any real doctrinal subjugation of women. Single moms were welcomed, motherhood and wifedom (?) were cherished but not mandated, and women were ordained as full ministers.

In Sarasota, we had a large enclave of Amish and Mennonite folks called Pinecraft. I knew several Mennonite kids in school, and some of them wore the traditional garb--the girls all wore conservative, plain dresses and the little hat things, and some of the boys wore suspenders with their trousers and shirts. These were families who lived with one foot in the real world, and the other foot in their closed off society. They made it work. No horses and buggies, though.

These people I've cited live their religious beliefs freely and without persecution, as far as the State is concerned. They're as free to be as conservative or weird in their beliefs as they want to be, as long as it doesn't interfere with another's rights. In the Muslim countries, this is not an option. The subjugation is State-mandated. Compliance is mandatory, and resistance is futile.

Another thought-provoking post, Shushala. You always make me think.
shush now
Your interchanging "Arab" and "Muslim" makes me grit my teeth, because there are a great number of secular Arab countries that DO NOT practice Sharia law, take Egypt and (until recently) Iraq as examples, where there are (in Egypt) Christian, Jewish and Buddhist communities- and there USED to be in Iraq, although most of said communities have been exiled. In fact, Iraq once housed the oldest Apostolic Christian settlement in the world, one that dated back to ten years after the death of Christ.

There are *some* countries that practice Sharia law and there are a few places in the secular countries that do, but a great deal of the Arabic world is fully secular. I've heard a lot of people bemoan the fact that a secular leader in Iraq was unseated, causing real instability for the Middle East that wanted to more fully embrace secularism.

I hate the fact that people speak so broadly about the Islamic faith, as if the vast majority of practitioners do so at the threat of death.

And as for "it's easier for an Amish woman to leave the faith"- not precisely. A woman in a country that does practice Sharia law could leave. One might say, "Amish women can just LEAVE!" but since most Amish women don't have formal schooling past the sixth grade, can't drive, and may not be able to read or write how are they to be expected to support themselves? They can't really just "leave" unless they marry out of the faith or someone else takes them in. Think about it- seriously, think about it. While I have a great deal of respect for the Amish faith and my heritage, there are abuses. There are problems. There IS pain.

If I'm remembering correctly, Pinecraft is more Mennonite than Amish. And there IS a difference! *lol*
tom
Please don't let my regrettably ignorant imprecision of language ruin your lovely smile. :-)

Obviously, there are predominantly Islamic countries with secular governments. I was referring to the ones wherein--as in your example--a girl is beaten as punishment for her own rape.

My generalization was unintentional and wrong. It brings to mind, in some ways, the way Christianity is portrayed in the media. "Conservative Christianity" has come to mean a group of lunatics who think the earth is 6000 years old and that W is a bit too liberal. I know a number of Muslims, and they're all great people. Some are devoutly religious; others are more secular. Just like the Christians I know. None of the people I know in either religion are extremists or terror-mongers.

As far as Pinecraft, it was more Mennonite than Amish, and I'm aware that there's a difference. The Amish walked everywhere or rode tricycles. The Mennonites drove kick-ass muscle cars and beat the crap out of us Presbyterians in church league softball.

I'm sure that's not the ONLY difference, though, so I'll defer to your experience on that point. ;-)

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